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Elijah Crouch's avatar

Great stuff overall! I don't mind Farley's take (as you portray it), and find it a lot better than most as far as broad strokes to large audiences go, although his take could be more nuanced. As far as your take goes:

Not at all convinced we should take "ἀριθμῷ δέ τε πάντ᾽ ἐπέοικεν" in any other way except, "but all resembles number" and just explain what ἀριθμός means. I'm also concerned by construing it in an identity sense like, "all is number," because of "ἐπέοικεν". And I would wonder if there is a fuller quote/sentence with context (though Reddit reports one, it is faulty and incorrectly cited), due to the "δέ τε" which would make me thinks it would have originally been a "but and" or "and also" or "this ____ but in addition, this ____" sort of clause. But that is trifling.

I disagree with your comment on time regarding music. To say time doesn't come into the picture, but motion does, and time can't because it is not taken substantially by the ancients and medievals in question here seems a bit faulty. It can be spoken of even if it does not exist as a thing. And especially if we grant that time is the "number of motion with respect to before or after" (Aristotle, Physics IV, as you will have already recognized), it seems to be some major aspect of rhythm and perceived harmonies (where harmony is primarily linear) which does not come into play with Arith. and Geo. thus far in the quad, so is a a distinguisher for music, by which harmonia is best seen. NOW, if we mean harmonia strictly, this is less so, and a study of "multitudes insofar as they are in relation" is a better way to construe it.

Also, I have no problem with the medievals as far as the liberal arts go, especially since that's when we really see things formalized, but I wouldn't mind consulting Presocratics/Plato/Nicomachus/Iamblichus/Plotinus/Aristides Quint. on the quadrivium a bit more. They sometimes conceive of things with differing metaphysics or methods that can be nice to have, especially when thinking about the symbolic side of things, and are majors players in the development of ancient quadrivial stuff. And help when thinking of limit/unlimited. Then again I'm not really a pythagorean nor a neoplatonist in a lot of senses anyway.

I'm glad we agree one isn't a number :)

Thanks for a great take on the quad!

Jason Farley's avatar

Really appreciate this interaction! I'm, like many, trying to find an education. Much of what you write is a helpful drilling down to the particulars. Also, as I've read through the relevant works, it seems that the conversation and debate is where a significant portion of the wisdom is found. So, here we go!

I agree that I'm not careful with definitions. I'm writing with current vocabulary. Your pull into more precise definitions is appreciated. I do not believe that I severely misunderstand the ancients and medievals, having spent my fair share with them, but I did not write this essay with the precision of the language that they would have. Point taken. Writing post-Heidegger about medievals is a balancing act that I have not mastered. Many readers do not have the metaphysical vocabulary necessary, but that doesn't excuse my sloppy definitions.

Some I will stand behind. I believe words like information have changed meaning in modern English such that they no longer denote what the medievals meant. But over all, I ought to shore up.

And many of your distinctions are exactly what I am working through as I work through the traditions.

At the heart of what I am after is a restoration of the Quadrivium as something other than what we think of as Math and Science curriculum. In the same way the trivium is not grammar and literature curriculum. It is the recovery of the art of knowing. This whole project, for me, began as I worked through Aristotle's divisions of knowledge. The realization that we lack care in our distinctions opened an attic of dust covered books that I have been working my way through in order to understand the quadrivium. Part of writing about it is to sort my own thoughts. As Bacon quipped, writing makes a man exact. But the other part is to find those already having the discussion. So, I'm halfway there (and living on a prayer)

To the meat: Though I am not surprised to find a definition I am using to not be ancient, I am surprised that it is not because it is extremely prevalent. I stepped into a conversation in the present and am, in many ways, reading my way backwards. So I appreciate what you are saying, but I also am stepping into the contemporary conversation and, as is my habit, trying to pull together what I am learning as I go. I also fully admit that much of my reading has focused on alchemical writings as much as philosophical.

I am approaching the quadrivium as a humanist more than a mathematician (to my shame), but, I am looking to understand, so your distinction between discrete quantities and number in itself is interesting. The way I would see that distinction is between the abstract and the particular. The study of arithmetic would be the study of both as well as the study of the relation of the abstract to the particular. Correct? My definition is partial, not incorrect, if I am reading you correctly.

On to Geometry. Yes, space is a foreign concept to the ancients. but it is not to us. So I believe my definition and your definition are a difference of vocabulary. Not to say they are not substantive, and that my vocabulary is not the one in need of refining, but the substance of geometry as the art of enumerating magnitudes (what many would now call space) is at least a starting point. Correct?

Now, music, this is where we may have a disagreement. I'm not sure. I do believe that time is one important aspect of what is being enumerated in music. The divisions of time by rhythm are central to writings on music, as well as the discussions of the music of the spheres. Now, my philosophical definition of time may, perhaps, be what you see as the problem. I'm still unsure about the metaphysical nature of time. I'm stuck between competing voices at the moment and that may be coming through, but the vibrations that produce sound as well as the divisions of rhythm can be neither produced or experienced without time.

On astronomy, I don't disagree with Boethius, but believe astronomy as a quadrivial science, came to include much more than that. Bede's work on the keeping of time has influenced my understanding of astronomy as a broader discipline.

And I simply disagree with Thomas (with sufficient shamefacedness, since I understand I am disagreeing with my superior) on the use of the imagination. Logocentric reason does not hold the central place in reasoning anymore and, as Christ is both the Divine Logos and the Divine Image at the same time, I do not believe we need set asunder the imagination and reason. We are, as a rule, more prone to make the opposite error in our day, so we could use the ballast of The Angelic Doctor, but I stand by my statements about the imagination.

Sir, I appreciate your response immensely! This is an incredibly valuable conversation. Thank you!

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